Talk:Kya Sove Tu Bavri (क्या सोवे तू बावरी)

There are a few difficulties in trying to nail down solid info regarding this book. In many such cases, it is because there is little info. That is only partly so with Bavri. Here, the main difficulty is an inconsistency of data, starting with the most basic, how many discourses are there? Well, different sources say different things. Most audio sites offer just four mp3s. Osho World and osho.com, which generally have a decent credibility in this basic accounting, offer seven, but with twists and turns.

Since the text on this discussion page was first written, decent info on the Rebel 1990 book edition has come along. Comments integrating this new info follow the table, indented. -- 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

~ Osho World's audiobook offering ~	~ osho.com's audiobook offering ~	~ Rebel 1990 book edition ** ~
1. युवा क्रांति की रूप रेखा 2. पहले विचार फिर निर्विचार 3. मन से मुक्ति 4. विश्वास नहीं-स्वानुभव 5. संन्यास और अंतस क्रांति 6. ध्यान है: भगवत्ता 7. निजता की घोषणा	0: [sic] 0: [sic] 1: युवा-क्रांति की रूप-रेखा (54) 2: पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार (54) 3: मन से मुक्ति (62) 4: विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव (118) 5: संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति (44)	1. निजता की घोषणा . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2. युवा क्रांति की रूप रेखा . . . . . . . 31 3. पहले विचार, फिर निर्विचार . . . . 45 4. मन से मुक्ति . . . . . . . . . . . . . .61 5. विश्वास नहीं—स्वानुभव . . . . . . 77

The numbers after the discourse titles at osho.com are timings in minutes, and the first four correspond fairly well to timings at other audio sites. The fifth, who knows. Meanwhile, what are these zeros? It will be noticed that the five titles of o.com correspond fairly well with those of OW's first five. But what of their 6 & 7? And where DO these extra discourses come from, especially given that even OW in its free download section only offers four? Hmmm.

** With the addition of the info from the Rebel 1990 TOC, we have a few more wrinkles. The five titles that agree so well between the two audiobook offerings are not all here, with the last one replaced by one of the two found only at OW. That one has been made the first chapter, with the rest bumped along behind it. The new one is twice as long as each of the others except possibly what is now the fifth. The book's total page count is not known, was just an estimate, but i will try to find out how long that fifth one is. It should also be approx twice as long, according to its audio timing info.

We might also wonder what might have been the reason, if any, for not including the audiobooks' chapter five, संन्यास और अंतस-क्रांति, "sannyas and inner revolution". Likely the pub date of March 1990 would have been too early for any ideological shifts to have affected this level, and in any case, audiobook offerings would have been a later phenomenon, long after the book was published. But ya never know. -- doofus-9 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe we can approach this conundrum from another angle. There are free e-book pdfs of Bavri available as well; most are probably copied from Osho World's offering. Looking at that one, i found a few infobits at what i presumed to be the ends of chapters, indicating dates and locations. Excellent, as far as it goes! How far is that? Well ...

These pdfs do not have features like chapter titles or space indicating clear chapter ends, count the spaces and Bob's your uncle. No no no. So i scrolled slowly through and found, on p 11, 23 and 74 (of 74 total) three date and location infobits:

on p 11, words indicating a private home in Bombay, on Feb 1, 1969

on p 23, King Edward Memorial Hospital in Bombay, Feb 24, 1969

and on p 74, words indicating a dialog/conversation somewhere in Bombay, Nov 27, 1969

Osho.com's audio timings and the relative proportion of space taken by such "chapters" as are hinted at in the pdf might be sort of consistent if one takes the view that the first two pdf "chapters" correspond to the first two audios, and the last (p 23 to 74) corresponds to the total of the rest of the audio. (The math is: (54+54)/(54+54+62+118+44) ≈ 23/74.) In this view, the pdf rolls last three of the five audio chapters into one undifferentiated extended conversation. Making both that "chapter" and the whole book look like a kind of compilation, loose Q & A sessions of a certain vintage put together in a small book.

So perhaps the picture is not really so unclear, leaving aside the other two audio chapters, zero and zero / six and seven. Anyway, that's about all i could piece together so far. As with many Hindi titles, further resolution will depend mainly on a fluent Hindi speaker who has read the book and/or listened to the audios.

A small edition note about the Rebel edition. That info, such as it is, was found tucked away on a Jain library / bookseller site. Such orgs/places have respected Osho from the beginning as a legitimate and worthy commenter on spiritual matters, especially his books on their main man Mahavira. Thus, their sites occasionally will turn up books not found elsewhere, even old ones, since they don't move very quickly. -- Sarlo (talk) 10:26, 20 May 2014 (PDT)

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The 1980 Rajneesh Foundation edition was added on the basis of the recent publications list of Rahiman Dhaga Prem Ka (रहिमन धागा प्रेम का), published in July 1980. In that list, it was referred to as a "pocket edition". -- doofus-9 18:36, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Further Complicated Information

Shailendra has offered a long explanation about what has happened with Bavri's chapters and discourse titles. It relates not just to titles shifting from ch 3 to ch 5 but from Bavri to other books, even throwing in a general cultural background ...

Note: In 1960-70 it was illegal to have a tape recorder in India. One has to have a license to use even a bicycle and radio. In those days huge spools were used instead of cassettes. Spools could record 4-6 hours of audio. It was necessary to keep the recorder hidden from the public, therefore no announcements were made, eg date, place, topic of discourse. Later on things would occasionally get mixed up.

The source of much of the confusion with this book is one of those tape mix-up cases. The "extra-long" 4th discourse in o.com's audio list was actually two lectures rolled together misunderstood as one. This mistake persisted in the 1990 Rebel book as well, as the 5th chapter. The last part of this audio is not part of this talk so it has been separated as #5 in later editions.

This tape did triple-duty as it happens, since the same part separated out as #5 was also used as Chal Hansa Us Des ch #7, in earlier editions of that book. Chal Hansa has also offered another chapter that has been deemed more appropriate for Bavri, #6 in both.

See the table below for an attempt at a more organized version of these facts. -- doofus-9 04:38, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Changes in Bavri in different formats and editions over the years

audio no.	old book	middle era books	latest changes in 2016
1	2	1	1
2	3	2	2
3	4	3	3
4	5	4	4 (Last part of audio is not part of this talk, so separated as #5)
-	1 (audio missing)	5	7
-	-	-	5 (Last part of audio #4, which also served as Chal Hansa Us Des #7, now removed from there)
-	-	-	6 (Previously Chal Hansa Us Des #6, now moved here)